Jeep Wrangler 4xe Forum banner
21 - 36 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
I'm in the mid-West so we are now approaching the time of year to test out the cold-weather use case. It is well documented that battery capability drops with low temperatures. Add to that the additional demand of the heater, heated steering and heated seats and this puts a big load on the battery. Gasoline engines produce a lot of waste heat which is good in colder climate situations, so I was thinking about 'forcing' the engine to run on cold starts by putting it into 'e-save' mode until the gas engine is warm and then running in 'hybrid' mode once the vehicle warms up. I believe engine coolant is circulated into the batteries so the engine heat should warm up the hybrid batteries and help. I also thought I read somewhere that 4xe will run conditioned coolant when plugged in to moderate the battery temps (people describe fans going off when the vehicle is parked and plugged in). I would be surprised if the same is not done for maintaining some heat in the batteries during cold weather, but this is just speculation on my part. If you truly are dissatisfied with your 4xe, you should have no trouble trading it in or reselling as demand is extremely high for the 4xe.
Curious if you've tried the e-save mode for cold starts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
Yes; e-save runs only electric. Temps in Indiana have been uncharacteristically warm 30’s and 40’s, and I have a heated garage, so waiting for Jan and Feb temps to experience what has been reported by our Canadian friends. Even if I run gas ICE only in extreme cold, I am pleased with it. I have the cold weather package and the seat has three settings. Hi heat mode on the seat will cook your bacon and heated wheel keeps hands toasty.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
e-save runs only electric
e-save is gas only (or at least, gas first), electric is electric only unless you push the pedal past a notch at the end you can feel. hybrid will use electric first but with a lower threshold to trigger the gas engine. Once the battery depletes, it's still a hybrid but your gas mileage might not be great.

Quit your crying and don’t hate on Apple or Jeep for not being able to change the laws of physics.
That would be a valid knock if other car companies with PHEVs also had this issue. But they mostly don't, so clearly they either have some alien, physics defying, tech that allows electric mode to work in the cold. I don't think it's "crying" to expect a company famous for rugged vehicles to deliver one that, you know, can work in the cold. Also, FWIW Apple is famous for pretending broken products aren't, so perhaps not the best comparison. Remember "you're holding it wrong"?

Turn off your fully charged iPhone and place it overnight outside in subzero temps then turn it on and keep using it outside without putting it in a warm pocket and see how long you can use it (if it even turns on?).
But battery charge isn't the issue here. My neighbor's Tesla charges and drives fine in the identical temperatures where FORM triggers on my Jeep. Battery is charged. Just can't use it.

If you can’t stand it, I’m sure you can trade in or sell outright in the spring and get another vehicle.
But I like it. I don't want to sell it. I want the issue fixed for good. With this issue, others might not want to buy it anyway. If it gets fixed, when Jeep release a full electric model, I'll be able to trade it in for a decent price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
That would be a valid knock if other car companies with PHEVs also had this issue
Most all phevs have fuel dilution issues. Some have built in methods for controlling it. Some don't and suffer premature engine wear as a result.


Tesla charges and drives fine in the identical temperatures where FORM triggers on my Jeep
Teslas suffer significant reductions in efficiency in the cold. There are plenty that would argue that losing half their stated range isn't driving fine.

Obviously it's not going to have a form mode being that it doesn't have an engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Teslas suffer significant reductions in efficiency in the cold. There are plenty that would argue that losing half their stated range isn't driving fine.
Oh there are plenty who do, but it does still drive without, you know, helping to roast the planet. Tesla also doesn't pretend it's not an issue.

Obviously it's not going to have a form mode being that it doesn't have an engine
Again, plenty of other PHEVs do, and don't have this issue. Look on other PHEV forums. You won't see the top threads dedicated to this. How many threads are on this site alone dedicated for FORM? I've seen at least 10. Easily the top on most boards here. Just look below at "Recommended Reading". Meanwhile my dealer hasn't heard a peep from Stellantis about FORM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Look on other PHEV forums
Yes, they don't have form problems since they dont use that system, but many of them have fuel dilution issues which is the actual problem being addressed.

Form is an inconvenience. Engine damage due to fuel dilution is a real problem. I get that the implementation of form leaves a bit to be desired but it's certainly better than the premature engine damage that's lead to the recall of hundreds of thousands of vehicles.

but it does still drive without, you know, helping to roast the planet
Most teslas get powered by coal... and doubling the power required to get you where you're going takes double the coal to get there. Evs aren't carbon neutral either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Most teslas get powered by coal
That's true in some cases. Why the coal industry needs to die. But even where it is true, many small engines burning fossil fuels emits a lot more carbon than doing it in one central location with efficient generators and the possibility of carbon capture. What you're saying is therefore misleading. Since you like Forbes:



the implementation of form leaves a bit to be desired
The implementation does not match the documentation. It is broken by definition. It's a problem that needs to be fixed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
What you're saying is therefore misleading
How so? Evs for the most part receive their power from carbon producing power sources and a significant reduction in efficiency results in more pollution to be generated. They are better than gas powered vehicles, but they're not carbon neutral and a big reduction in efficiency is still a net contributor towards "roasting the planet".

The point is that saying that a tesla isn't impacted by the cold in a way that hampers driveability and increases the carbon footprint is largely untrue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
many small engines burning fossil fuels emits a lot more carbon than doing it in one central location with efficient generators and the possibility of carbon capture.
And there's even an article describing how. Where I live we're carbon neutral anyway and have been for a long time. Also some of the cheapest electricity in the country. Some parts of the country just aren't serious about it because of stupidity and greed. Even then, in those parts, it's still better to drive in electric.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Where I live we're carbon neutral anyway
Its great that seattle is primarily hydroelectric and thats certainly a huge improvement over coal. With that said, buying carbon credits is great for a municipality to claim carbon neutral status, but it doesn't actually stop the carbon from going into the air.

Font Screenshot Number Parallel Electric blue


It's kinda like a tesla running at half efficiency... looks good on paper, and is better than a lot of alternatives, but still pollutes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
From the wikipedia article you didn't click on:
The 2016 official fuel mix statistics by the state of Washington for Seattle City Light show approximately 88% hydroelectric, 5% nuclear, 4% wind, 1% coal, 1% natural gas, 1% biogas.
But again, that's ignoring the point that even when the power plant is coal it still emits less carbon to drive in electric than gas. So when I am forced to drive on gas because of what's clearly a screw up nobody will admit, it annoys me just a little bit. Likewise when people lie about climate change, EV efficiency, or my city's power sources it really pisses me off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Likewise when people lie about climate change, EV efficiency, or my city's power sources it really pisses me off.
I've said nothing about climate change (well, i guess i did quote your "roasting the planet" statement while refuting than the tesla was carbon neutral), openly acknowledged that Seattle is primarily hydroelectric, cited their own policy of purchasing carbon credits in order to claim a carbon neutral status, and provided multiple sources showing the significant efficiency hit that teslas take in the cold.

Care to elaborate where I'm lying?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Care to elaborate where I'm lying?
I'll let others read your posts and come to their own conclusions. You could teach a masterclass in gaslighting, moving goalposts, and general internet trollery. I don't have the time or will to explain carbon credits to you or the fact that -1 + 1 = 0. No, a Tesla running anywhere, least of all Seattle, does not pollute to the same extent as an ICE vehicle anywhere. Likewise my Jeep will always emit more carbon running in FORM mode than in electric. In places where it's cold much of the year, that matters. For Canadians the vehicle is functionally defective.

It does not behave as is documented in the manual. 20 minutes of driving, even once warmed up, does not exit FORM. Filling it up actually seems to trigger it. Oil change, for some people, only solved the issue temporarily. With at least one, FORM came back at 97%. It's a gift to a dying fuel industry which is exactly what I hoped not to purchase. Therefore I'm demanding Jeep fix the vehicle so people end up with what they actually paid for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
I don't have the time or will to explain carbon credits to you or the fact that -1 + 1 = 0. No, a Tesla running anywhere, least of all Seattle, does not pollute to the same extent as an ICE vehicle anywhere
Personally, I consider something that is carbon neutral to actually release a net 0 amount of carbon. Not a positive carbon footprint with some money going to somewhere else. The carbon released into your local environment doesn't magically disappear because Seattle cut someone a check. Yes, on paper, that's carbon neutral, but the only thing being carbon neutral on paper does is make people feel like they're not having an impact.

Minimizing coal is great for improving things, there's no doubt about that. As are running evs. They're definitely less bad, but to claim that they're the perfect solution is simply not true. That's not me saying evs are bad.

I never once said that a tesla, or any other ev, has a larger carbon footprint than an ice vehicle. I disagreed with your statement that your friend's tesla wasn't impacted in its functionality and environmental impact by the cold and cited how that was the case.

We seem to be struggling here with having a nuanced conversation where things aren't absolutes. It's possible for multiple things to have flaws.

We talk about other phevs and you fixate on "they don't have a problem with form" and totally ignore the actual issue that's being combatted that most of them suffer from.

You look at your friend's tesla that runs on electric in the cold as being flawless and totally ignore the significant efficiency reduction.

You hear me talking about FORM as not being satisfied and totally ignore the conversations we keep having about the design flaws that could lead to that.

Just because someone makes a statement that conflicts with your world view doesn't mean they're a liar, corporate spy, or gaslighting you.

If you think that my opinion is that there isn't an inherent design compromise that has been made, you're not listening to the totality of what I've been saying. I think that Jeep as a company is deeply flawed, their communication regarding the 4xe has been atrocious, and there are huge areas for improvement. I also think that it's very important for us as the consumer base to actually understand how and why the vehicle does what it does so that we can move forward from an educated standpoint.

We have been down this road many times, so it shouldn't need rehashing, but let's touch on it again.

Your complaint is that you're in FORM, you're driving for 20 minutes, and it isn't going away, ergo there must be a problem with FORM. Yet after doing so, you have evidence of fuel in your oil, meaning that if FORM showed as satisfied just because you drove for 20 minutes, your engine would be susceptible to damage because the oil still has fuel in it. That sure sounds like FORM taking the proper steps to protect your engine. It's not doing what you think it should, but it's doing what is appropriate.

Now, the numbers you have provided support the idea that you're not getting fully up to temperature. That explains FORM not being satisfied and the fuel not being driven off. Given that data, this conversation should be "why can't I get up to temperature" or "why can't I burn off the fuel in the oil" rather than "I drove for 20 minutes and form is still on". That may be due to a problem with the vehicle, it may be due to a design compromise for the vehicle to have the capability of a Wrangler, etc.

Saying "there's a problem with the cooling system" or "there's too much fuel in your oil" and not "there's a software coding problem that's causing FORM to not satisfy" doesn't mean I'm saying that there isn't an issue or that jeep shouldn't address it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
847 Posts
@Thor back to your original question, this is what Dan Fry posted on Facebook


Cold Weather Operation of the Wrangler 4xe

Remote start and regular button start will both work, with an EVSE plugged in. That’s a great way to warm the battery and the cabin using energy from the wall. The Jeep will not shift out of Park until you remove the charge handle, to prevent accidentally driving off while plugged in. The plug icon in the cluster gives you a heads up.

You might see Fuel/Oil Refresh more frequently in cold weather. That’s because short engine runtimes in cold temperatures are most conducive to fuel dilution into the engine oil. If this happens, the solution is to get the engine warm and keep it running for up to an hour and a half to evaporate the fuel out of the oil… or change the engine oil.

Here’s what to expect as mornings get colder. All of this logic is true, whether an EVSE is plugged in or not:

Above ~32°F, and with sufficient battery and fuel, the vehicle will usually power up silently (ICE not running). The exception is if you have a very high HVAC demand.

Below 32°F but above 10°F, the ICE engine will also run at startup. You can select Electric mode to shut it off, relying instead on the electric heaters. There will be a range penalty. If you use remote start in a cold garage, take note exhaust will be emitted.

Below 10°F, the engine will always run until various systems are up to operating temperature. Electric mode will be unavailable during warmup. At these temperatures, the electric heater really isn’t an efficient way to heat the cabin, and your EV range would be greatly reduced by that anyway. The same is true of BEV’s, but they don’t have an ICE to help.

If it’s below ~5°F outside when you shut down, the instrument cluster will advise you to plug in an EVSE to maintain battery temperature. This is only strictly necessary in case the battery temp falls below -20°F overnight. Level 1 or Level 2 are suitable.

All the way down to -20°F, the Jeep can start unassisted (without an EVSE connected). This is the same capability as other Wranglers and most ICE vehicles.

If outside temperature is likely to fall below -20°F, you definitely want to connect an EVSE overnight. The Jeep will wake up periodically and warm and circulate coolant to facilitate a restart. It’s not necessary to also connect a block heater.

With an EVSE connected, the Jeep can start as low as -40°F. This is the same performance a other Wranglers and the best production ICE vehicles - they require block heaters in these temperatures.

Happy Snow-Jeeping! 🙂
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Top