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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm having a hard time finding a decent answer to a simple question. If a 2015 Camry gets 25 mpg city and 35 mpg highway and the camry hybrid gets 43 mpg city and 39 mpg using a mild hybrid system with a 1.6kwhr battery why wouldn't the 4xe at the very least duplicate a 30%+ improvement in mpg over a long trip? My Camry example is flawed because the hybrid Camry has a 2.0L i4 and the non hybrid engine is 2.4l, but it's similar. Plus the Jeep's battery is 10X larger so my point about the Jeep in hybrid mode not creating a greater benefit in mpg is valid. Does my question make sense? I just don't see anyone posing the same question. It seems to be expected that the only benefit the 4xe offers is 22 miles of all electric range at which point you are driving an overweight version of the gas only 2.0 turbo. How is Toyota boosting fuel economy by 30% with a small battery and electric motor that is only capable of adding a little extra power and allow for start stop in stop and go traffic?
 

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The camry uses a smaller displacement motor that uses less gas and augments it with the electric motor.

Likewise, the 4xe wrangler gets better gas mileage than the larger displacement, non-hybrid wranglers
 

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Do I understand correctly that the 4xe gets 29-30 mpg while in hybrid with >1% because it can use bigger bursts of electric only mode than a regular hybrid, but when the battery gets drained to the point it can’t operate on electric only, the mileage goes down to 21 mpg (and not a better figure, say… 23-24 mpg) because it has to carry around the additional weight of the battery? If that is so, I think I’d rather have a hybrid wrangler with that fuel economy and power, and no electric mode.
 

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The 4xe seems to get around 30ish mpg when running in a "blended" hybrid mode, which occurs either when you put it in manual or if the engine is triggered while in hybrid.

It is less efficient, however, to do that than it is to just run on electric using no gas and then with the engine running once you run out of charge. At quick glance, it's easy to think that 30 mpg > 20 mpg, so of course you want to run that way, but that doesn't paint an accurate picture of what's actually going on.
 

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I owned hybrids for years. The biggest benefit is in city driving. Nothing beats them if you compare with something close in power and size. The only exception is an EV of course. .
On the highway, they all suffer and behave like a normal car, meaning faster you go the fuel economy goes down the drain. It still helps, just not at the level you see in city driving. But they still show some benefits, I would say they are on par with an economical diesel.
A plugin Hybrid is heavier, so that benefit is reduced at highway speed.
I did a drive test with the wrangler 2.0T and PHEV before I got the PHEV, on the highway, just to compare. I would say the PHEV was 5 % better in fuel economy on highway with my style of driving at least. And of course, I am talking about the distance covered after the battery is drained.


I also noticed that my numbers on the highway are better than what is reported here compared with the 2.0T. They are already better than my Disco 4 SDV6, who had 3L diesel V6 , 258HP, about the same weight, 8 gear autobox, and also a brick. So it is already beating a diesel. Again, talking about driving long distance with the battery reported at 0%
. I will leave tomorrow evening for a pretty long trip, 11 hours of driving, fully loaded with people, luggage, even a roof box on top, so I will know more after.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the replies. I see so many posts from those that seem to imply that they run on all electric, then get about 20mpg after. Or posts that say they've filled up just once in 1000 miles because they make a lot of 20 mile trips which doesn't tell me what the mileage is in hybrid mode, or folks that go on long, presumably all highway road trips and get around 20 mpg which may actually be right since, as leeloo said, you get minimal benefit in highway driving. Fuelly also doesn't seem to break out the 4xe effectively. I think a useful feature would be a trip planner which would allow you to enter a destination and have the 4xe calculate distance, traffic, current battery level and then optimize battery usage for that trip. Seems like something that might be doable via software upgrade?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The 4xe seems to get around 30ish mpg when running in a "blended" hybrid mode, which occurs either when you put it in manual or if the engine is triggered while in hybrid.

It is less efficient, however, to do that than it is to just run on electric using no gas and then with the engine running once you run out of charge. At quick glance, it's easy to think that 30 mpg > 20 mpg, so of course you want to run that way, but that doesn't paint an accurate picture of what's actually going on.
Thank you. I guess, I haven't seen a lot of people state this.
 

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Thank you. I guess, I haven't seen a lot of people state this.
The problem is that the dash read out for mpg does not accurately or consistently tell what the mpg actually is.

Chris recently posted a video doing a direct comparison between running in M8 ("blended hybrid") and running electric first, in both cases traveling the distance to use up the battery that would be available in blended hybrid.

The net fuel economy was better by running electric down first than by running in M8, however, the dash read out showed M8 about 5 mpg better. Because it tries to show some weird mash up of fuel economy with the electric usage, misleading information is skewing people's opinions as to what is a better way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Do I understand correctly that the 4xe gets 29-30 mpg while in hybrid with >1% because it can use bigger bursts of electric only mode than a regular hybrid, but when the battery gets drained to the point it can’t operate on electric only, the mileage goes down to 21 mpg (and not a better figure, say… 23-24 mpg) because it has to carry around the additional weight of the battery? If that is so, I think I’d rather have a hybrid wrangler with that fuel economy and power, and no electric mode.
This is something I'm still not quite sure about. If the 4xe retains about 15% of the battery (~2.2kwhr), it should still provide some benefit to fuel economy, similar to a regular (non phev). It does weigh a lot though so the benefit may not be great. The new Tundra with the hybrid engine gets just a 2mpg boost in city driving with a 1.8kwhr battery over the non-hybrid and no boost in highway mpg. I think when you drive, you need to be aware of how long you'll go between charges since anything above 22-24 miles and you'll fall into the mild hybrid range and you mpg will drop. That's why it would be nice if the Wrangler could optimize battery use if you can tell it where you are going and have it optimize battery usage for that trip.
 

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If the 4xe retains about 15% of the battery (~2.2kwhr), it should still provide some benefit to fuel economy, similar to a regular (non phev)
It's worth keeping in mind that the main benefit with a mild hybrid is in city driving, where you can constantly recapture energy that would normally be wasted to heat via the brakes and use it to augment accelerating back up to speed. At constant speeds, the battery can't help much without running out of power since you aren't regenerating wasted energy to feed back into the battery.
 

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I'm having a hard time finding a decent answer to a simple question. If a 2015 Camry gets 25 mpg city and 35 mpg highway and the camry hybrid gets 43 mpg city and 39 mpg using a mild hybrid system with a 1.6kwhr battery why wouldn't the 4xe at the very least duplicate a 30%+ improvement in mpg over a long trip? My Camry example is flawed because the hybrid Camry has a 2.0L i4 and the non hybrid engine is 2.4l, but it's similar. Plus the Jeep's battery is 10X larger so my point about the Jeep in hybrid mode not creating a greater benefit in mpg is valid. Does my question make sense? I just don't see anyone posing the same question. It seems to be expected that the only benefit the 4xe offers is 22 miles of all electric range at which point you are driving an overweight version of the gas only 2.0 turbo. How is Toyota boosting fuel economy by 30% with a small battery and electric motor that is only capable of adding a little extra power and allow for start stop in stop and go traffic?
Regenerative braking.

That is why most mild hybrids have huge gains in city and small gains on the highway. You don’t use the brakes on the highway.

Drain the battery on a 4xe, figure out whatever mode uses both electric and gas in harmony all the time like the camry hybrid, and u’ll probably see the same thing.
 

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We really need to stop acting like the 4Xe is about owning an eco-vehicle. It is not. No one should even look at a Wrangler 4xe if they found a generic Wrangler gas milage unacceptable. The word Hybrid seems to set people down the rabbit hole. They begin to compare a hybrid truck to cars weighing 50% less, having less horse power, and no off-road capability what-so-ever. That makes zero sense. Then there are the people that compare the 4Xe to a full from the ground up EV. Makes no sense. You have to compare apples-to-apples.

The 4Xe is for people who first an foremost want a Wrangler. They would have bought a Wrangler regardless of the 4xe option. The hybrid aspect simply affords some perks:
- Fun - Same capability, more speed, more power and more torque than every other wrangler with the exception of the gas guzzling 392, at similar fuel efficiency non-hybrid Wranglers. Oh... Almost forgot - silent trail driving​
- Potential fuel savings in daily driving - 25 miles of electric driving. For example; My commute is now 98% electric. So if your use case is daily driving is <75 miles a day and you can full charge daily, you will save money. The City/HW thing is not really relevant for the 4xe because the weight and lack of aerodynamics cannot be over come with regen braking unless you drive down a mountain all day and never drive back up. IT all boils down to how far you drive vs how much you can charge the battery.​
-Environmentally Friendly - Only if you fall into the use-case above. Otherwise, there are far more appropriate cars/trucks if this is a top priority for you and you don't even need to go electric.​
-Cool Factor - This is purely anecdotal, It's new shiny and a conversation starter. Some people enjoy cutting edge.​
 

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The City/HW thing is not really relevant for the 4xe because the weight and lack of aerodynamics cannot be over come with regen braking unless you drive down a mountain all day and never drive back up.
Completely disagree with this.

You use energy to accelerate right?

Well if you hardly ever use the brake pedal, and you use max regen to decelerate.

Now in a perfect world, that is net zero energy usage and the weight is not relevant because the energy you used to decelerate is then recaptured to decelerate.

But it’s not a perfect world and we have electrical losses, drivetrain losses, and aero losses.

While it may not be even close to net zero energy usage, it sure as hell isn’t just some irrelevant feature that makes no difference unless your coasting down a mountain. It’s enough almost a 75% increase in stop and go efficiency of a camry. In a 4xe, it would atleast give a 25-35% boost, thats with a dead battery. Thats a huge savings for those that live in urban and suburban environment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
We really need to stop acting like the 4Xe is about owning an eco-vehicle. It is not. No one should even look at a Wrangler 4xe if they found a generic Wrangler gas milage unacceptable. The word Hybrid seems to set people down the rabbit hole. They begin to compare a hybrid truck to cars weighing 50% less, having less horse power, and no off-road capability what-so-ever. That makes zero sense. Then there are the people that compare the 4Xe to a full from the ground up EV. Makes no sense. You have to compare apples-to-apples.
I'm just trying to figure out what the hybrid system does other than burn no gas for 20 miles and add dead weight the rest of the time. No other PHEV works this way. A non-hybrid 2.0 turbo gets combined mpg of 20. It seems illogical that the 4xe would also get just 20 mpg once the vehicle can no longer run entirely on battery since we know it reserves 15% of the battery. Even the behemoth new Toyota Sequoia gets a mild bump with it's puny 1.8 kwhr battery. Why wouldn't the Wrangler? In any event, it does sound like many are getting a 20-30% improvement in fuel economy when running in hybrid mode. That's all I'm asking.
 

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1100 miles and I average 23.7 mpg. I charge every day but during my mostly highway drives between jobs (Electrical contractor) the battery is depleted in the first 15 or 20 minutes. I do not jackrabbit start. Fuel wise it's ok. Could be better but I got this since it was on the lot and ready to go. In my ideal world, I would have ordered a Rubicon with the diesel and Xtreme package. Overall, I am happy with the 4xe. It is what it is. What I mean by that, is I didn't expect a Tesla in terms or range nor was I expecting a Prius type fuel economy. It's a Jeep first and I love it.
 

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It seems illogical that the 4xe would also get just 20 mpg once the vehicle can no longer run entirely on battery since we know it reserves 15% of the battery
It reserves 15% and then oscillates around that because thats where it charges and discharges most efficiently. If you speed up, it uses some energy to help speed up. If you brake, it recaptures some energy. If you're cruising at a steady speed, there's no energy being recaptured, so there isn't any incoming energy to spend on making you go.
 

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I'm just trying to figure out what the hybrid system does other than burn no gas for 20 miles and add dead weight the rest of the time. No other PHEV works this way. A non-hybrid 2.0 turbo gets combined mpg of 20. It seems illogical that the 4xe would also get just 20 mpg once the vehicle can no longer run entirely on battery since we know it reserves 15% of the battery. Even the behemoth new Toyota Sequoia gets a mild bump with it's puny 1.8 kwhr battery. Why wouldn't the Wrangler? In any event, it does sound like many are getting a 20-30% improvement in fuel economy when running in hybrid mode. That's all I'm asking.
You certainly do not get 20-30% improvement once the battery is depleted. You get less mpg than standard 4cyl turbo. Engaging max regain is a placebo as far as fuels economy. If fact, since the 4xe always uses the motor to brake prior to engaging the actual brakes, all max regain does is prioritize braking over coasting. The exact scenario will determine which is better, not the fact that you are in the city.( For reference go to Wrangler4xefans YouTube page, he has tested this and it is not cut and dry) This is not complicated, the EPA has already tested this vehicle 2 years in a row and published the City MPG. Jeep isn't fighting the rating.

The Sequoia is not PHEV. It cannot run electric only and therefore is not apples to apples. I already pointed out that I can pretty much do my full commute on electric. Due to this fact, my odometer says I get 37 mpg over 1800 miles. I charge every night and multiple times per day on weekends doing home depots runs and such. I often go days without using gas. A Sequoia cannot do that.

So far I've seen a Jeep Wrangler 4xe compared to a non standard hybrids like Camry and Sequoia, full EV vehicles like Teslas, and any vehicle that has a battery and has better MPG or MPGE than a wrangler. The crazy thing is if I had said own a Jeep Wrangler with 375 hp and 470lb ft torque and still get 21mpg. Everyone would be amazed. Put PHEV in the mix and suddenly Camrys and Sequoias matter.

I really don't get it. There is so much to appreciate what the 4xe is. Yet everyone seems to focus on what it is not.
 

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The problem is that the dash read out for mpg does not accurately or consistently tell what the mpg actually is.

Chris recently posted a video doing a direct comparison between running in M8 ("blended hybrid") and running electric first, in both cases traveling the distance to use up the battery that would be available in blended hybrid.

The net fuel economy was better by running electric down first than by running in M8, however, the dash read out showed M8 about 5 mpg better. Because it tries to show some weird mash up of fuel economy with the electric usage, misleading information is skewing people's opinions as to what is a better way to go.
The dash MPG calculation in "blended" Hybrid mode does not calculate correctly for this "hidden" mode as it only counts pure electric range as electric and this mode keeps that from being "counted" (only 0.9 miles of electric shown in this mode). This then throws off the basic calculation of MPG for the Hybrid, which uses the electric equivalent energy of 33.7 kilowatt-hours / gallon of gasoline equivalent. If Chris only counts total miles driven and gasoline used (ignoring electric energy - which it seems that is what his calculation is) I get 66.7/2.321 = 28.7 MPG for the Blended Hybrid Mode case and 66.5/1.957 = 34.0 MPG for the standard Hybrid Mode. If it is based on gasoline only miles / gallons of gasoline (ignoring both electric miles and electric energy) I get 65.8/2.321=28.3 MPG for M8 and 45.6/1.957 = 34.0 MPG for standard Hybrid Mode. If I use the gasoline equivalent of the electric used (33.7 kWh/gallon) I get 28.5 MPG and 30.5 MPG respectively correcting for the electric energy used in Blended Hybrid Mode calculation to be the same as Standard Hybrid Mode as he used the same amount of electricity in both cases. In any case I agree with his conclusion that standard Hybrid Mode seems to be about 7% more efficient (last calculation is most accurate IMHO).
 

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People: What kind of gas mileage do you get in that thing?

Me: … it’s complicated

Them: why?

Me: attempting to explain 4Xe Wrangler in simplistic terms and failing

Them: oh… ok…

Me: … it’s complicated


This common convo is best part about owning a 4Xe haha
 
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