[HamishN]

Hey!

2022 Wrangler 4xe here. Bought my jeep in the spring and loved it over the summer. With winter here I'm really not happy with what I'm seeing.

Early October at 11k km it was at 40% oil life and I changed the oil because FORM had started to pop up on a regular basis. Two weeks later with local temps varying from -5C to -15 FORM was back again. No amount of driving cleared it for more than a few hours. If FORM cleared it would just pop up again the next time the ICE cycled on.

I took the jeep into the dealership last Wednesday and they couldn't find anything wrong. They assured me that the system was just doing what it is designed to do. At this point my oil life is at 80% and the jeep has run maybe 1000km on the ICE. Local temps were around -25C. FORM is on at all times now.

Today with local temp at -10C while driving, I got a "change oil" warning and my oil life indicator dropped to 0%. I immediately pull over and check the oil, all good. Engine parameters are all good.

I'm going to call the dealership on Monday. I seriously doubt that the oil condition monitors are working right at this point.

 

[4xesc]

What type of driving are you doing? It sounds like lots of short trips? If so when the ICE does run it’s not getting up to operating temperature. If you have enough of those short ICE runs the algorithm is going to put you into form to burn any gas that mixed with the oil. Gas may or may not have mixed with the oil, it’s just the conditions are telling the ecu that it may have occurred.

 

[Mllcb42]

If FORM cleared it would just pop up again the next time the ICE cycled on.

This is step 1 of FORM. It allows you to start in electric, but if the engine is triggered it stays on and FORM is displayed. This is due to build up of fuel in the oil, but at a lower calculated level.

FORM is on at all times now.

This is step 2 of FORM. Fuel levels in the oil are calculated at a higher level, so it's trying to force longer run times to burn it off.

I got a "change oil" warning and my oil life indicator dropped to 0%.

This is step 3 of FORM. Fuel levels in the oil have been calculated to be at a critical level and it is prompting an oil change since it hasn't been able to keep levels in check by forcing the engine to run.

 

[BXFXJeep]

I doubt the 4xe will even attempt to run in electric at -25c, last winter I think the cut off for pure electric was around -12c, but at around 0c the place is cold, I can care less about electric, I just run in ICE to keep the vehicle warm.

I didn't really pay attention to the FORM messaging, but at under -12c I was getting a Electric mode is unavailable or something like that, but again I can care less about running in electric at sub zero.

It really doesn't make sense trying to get a PHEV with 30 odd KM range to run in pure electric at -25c.

Meddling with the 4xe system to drive in electric in -25c may be causing more problems.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

what you described is normal operation, if its too cold it won't run in electric mode once that happens if you have short engine run times FORM will happen.

 

[Wrangler4XEFan]

These oil change warnings are very different from last winter. That tells me that some of the updates have changed things operationally.

Here’s the other weird thing. I know there will be those who disagree with this statement but there is no documentation or communication from Jeep that indicates that the 4XE should fall in to FORM and just stay there all winter. When the engine is needed, we should see a plain “Electric Mode Unavailable” for maybe even the cabin cooling or heating message. But for the vehicle to just reside in a perpetual or repetitive state of FORM is not normal according to any documentation. Something is going on and we need @JeepCares to listen and work with the 4XE community to find a solution.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

These oil change warnings are very different from last winter. That tells me that some of the updates have changed things operationally.

Here’s the other weird thing. I know there will be those who disagree with this statement but there is no documentation or communication from Jeep that indicates that the 4XE should fall in to FORM and just stay there all winter. When the engine is needed, we should see a plain “Electric Mode Unavailable” for maybe even the cabin cooling or heating message. But for the vehicle to just reside in a perpetual or repetitive state of FORM is not normal according to any documentation. Something is going on and we need @JeepCares to listen and work with the 4XE community to find a solution.

That is a good idea and theory, but the jeep already does that.
My 2022 Rubicon is not in FORM, 83% oil life but has had EMU when its too cold, thats all no other messages.

My 2021 Sahara also had the same behavior until it hit FORM. It then cleared FORM but got EMU because it was too cold. Now its in step 2 of FORM and starts the ICE but gives the FORM message in screen 8.

The problem with all the anecdotal evidence (not from you) is that unless people monitor their temps and whats going on with their vehicle its hard to get a baseline of what's right and what's "wrong"

I don't see much difference in operation of FORM on my sahara from last year, although i have a bit of a theory i'm going to post later about why my Rubicon isn't in FORM and my sahara is (its not related to the winter cover)

Also related to the updates, how is it possible over the air updates change the PCM, PCM's can't be updated without a Witech connected at a dealership. PCM flashing/updating is a pretty involved process so i can't see that being done over the air.

 

[Mllcb42]

Here’s the other weird thing. I know there will be those who disagree with this statement but there is no documentation or communication from Jeep that indicates that the 4XE should fall in to FORM and just stay there all winter

I suspect the problem is that most of the people getting stuck in FORM all winter long are using the vehicle in such a way that they're making a net addition to the fuel in the oil on a daily basis.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

I suspect the problem is that most of the people getting stuck in FORM all winter long are using the vehicle in such a way that they're making a net addition to the fuel in the oil on a daily basis.

Riddle me this because i've been trying to rap my head around it.

My Sahara and Rubicon have almost identical commutes, one is in FORM one isn't, i'd like to think its because of the winter cover but i'll pose you this question.

What's worse from a Fuel Oil Dilution Standpoint.

Daily trips about 12kms maybe 20 mins total engine run time, oil temp doesn't get above 60c

OR

Daily Trips 12kms Electric only driving to work. ICE start up after work but only runs for 1-2 mins then turns off.
The next trip is in electric only, followed by a very short ICE run before turning off and running in electric mode

So in your opinion what causes more fuel/oil dilution longer run times not getting warm enough or very short run times where the oil doesn't get warm at all (max 12c)

That's really the only difference I can come up with right now, because my Rubicon is not in FORM at all, yet they both park inside at night have and have a similar commute.

The only other reason is the winter cover because it's allowed my Rubicon to run electric only when on the edge of electric only temperatures where as the Sahara just started the ICE up.

 

[Wrangler4XEFan]

That is a good idea and theory, but the jeep already does that.
My 2022 Rubicon is not in FORM, 83% oil life but has had EMU when its too cold, thats all no other messages.

My 2021 Sahara also had the same behavior until it hit FORM. It then cleared FORM but got EMU because it was too cold. Now its in step 2 of FORM and starts the ICE but gives the FORM message in screen 8.

The problem with all the anecdotal evidence (not from you) is that unless people monitor their temps and whats going on with their vehicle its hard to get a baseline of what's right and what's "wrong"

I don't see much difference in operation of FORM on my sahara from last year, although i have a bit of a theory i'm going to post later about why my Rubicon isn't in FORM and my sahara is (its not related to the winter cover)

Also related to the updates, how is it possible over the air updates change the PCM, PCM's can't be updated without a Witech connected at a dealership. PCM flashing/updating is a pretty involved process so i can't see that being done over the air.

It’s the odd inconsistencies between vehicles that I’d like to figure out. I’ve never seen FORM in mine while others slip in to it regularly in similar climates. Some of us have zero issues while others have all sorts of issues. That’s the part I don’t get.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

It’s the odd inconsistencies between vehicles that I’d like to figure out. I’ve never seen FORM in mine while others slip in to it regularly in similar climates. Some of us have zero issues while others have all sorts of issues. That’s the part I don’t get.

Do you ever see temps sustained below -12c (12f) meaning night and day the temps never go above that temperature?

 

[Mllcb42]

The only other reason is the winter cover because it's allowed my Rubicon to run electric only when on the edge of electric only temperatures where as the Sahara just started the ICE up

I suspect it also helps the oil get up to temperature faster, no?


I would suspect that the winter cover would reduce the number of cold starts (because you can run in electric), reduce the time to get to temperature (limiting the fuel added to the oil), and maintain a higher average oil temp (increasing the fuel removed from the oil).

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

I suspect it also helps the oil get up to temperature faster, no?

It does, but i'm not getting the oil up to temp faster, the ICE is starting because it's "too cold" but after running for a minute it's allowing me to select electric mode so it turns off, so in theory it's like the worst case scenario for FORM, but it's not happening

 

[Mllcb42]

so in theory it's like the worst case scenario for FORM

You may be limiting the net amount of fuel added though, at least delaying FORM. That wouldn't be burning off fuel, but it'd reduce the amount of time driving around in a condition where you're continuously adding fuel to the oil 🤷‍♂️

 

[Mllcb42]

What would be a great test to do would be sending oil samples of both jeeps off to compare how much fuel is actually in the oil.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

You may be limiting the net amount of fuel added though, at least delaying FORM. That wouldn't be burning off fuel, but it'd reduce the amount of time driving around in a condition where you're continuously adding fuel to the oil 🤷‍♂️

That makes sense, in theory as i've managed to avoid FORM for approximately a month so far.

 

[HamishN]

what you described is normal operation, if its too cold it won't run in electric mode once that happens if you have short engine run times FORM will happen.

That seems to be the consensus. SNAFU.

If my brand new Jeep can't handle the same daily commute that everyone else does in less than perfect conditions without constant oil changes then there is something seriously wrong with this design.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

That seems to be the consensus. SNAFU.

If my brand new Jeep can't handle the same daily commute that everyone else does in less than perfect conditions without constant oil changes then there is something seriously wrong with this design.

I suggest you take the time to read ALL of my posts on FORM, then you can be better educated and decide whether you think there is something seriously wrong with it. Because the facts and data say its NORMAL operation

 

[4xesc]

That seems to be the consensus. SNAFU.

If my brand new Jeep can't handle the same daily commute that everyone else does in less than perfect conditions without constant oil changes then there is something seriously wrong with this design.

Is your daily commute is it around 10 miles and does the ICE come on briefly each way? If so I bet if you switch things up and run one way on e save every few days that would help prevent form. Provided the ICE gets up to running temps.

 

[HamishN]

This is step 1 of FORM. It allows you to start in electric, but if the engine is triggered it stays on and FORM is displayed. This is due to build up of fuel in the oil, but at a lower calculated level.



This is step 2 of FORM. Fuel levels in the oil are calculated at a higher level, so it's trying to force longer run times to burn it off.



This is step 3 of FORM. Fuel levels in the oil have been calculated to be at a critical level and it is prompting an oil change since it hasn't been able to keep levels in check by forcing the engine to run.

So do you think this step 3 of form is purely triggered by runtime data or is the oil actually diluted past useable limits?

Even with sub optimal driving conditions a 1000km life on oil is insane.