[Butterfly]

I have had my '23 Trailhawk 4xe for two weeks. I was super-excited to order this as it is my first hybrid. But...this car has created more anxiety in my life than I would have ever dreamed. My biggest disappointment is that the Hybrid mode doesn't seem to work like I thought hybrids should. I'm appalled that the battery drain in Hybrid equals the drain in Electric. Is this a normal experience for everyone else? I don't want to have to plug it in every night to get only 20-24 miles out of a full charge and in Hybrid mode. I drive equal parts city and highway. I feel like I am watching my dashboard constantly. I am not enjoying this vehicle at all.

After five days of driving it, and communicating with my salesperson each day, I ordered a non-hybrid JGC. I am taking a huge financial hit.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[hddman]

I just drive mine and pay no attention to the battery charge percentage. Sorry that bothers you.

 

[Mllcb42]

My biggest disappointment is that the Hybrid mode doesn't seem to work like I thought hybrids should. I'm appalled that the battery drain in Hybrid equals the drain in Electric

It's important here to understand what a phev is compared to a normal hybrid vehicle.

With a normal hybrid, you essentially have a gas engine augmented by an electric motor with a small battery. When you brake, energy is recaptured and stored in the battery, and then applied to help accelerate/propel the vehicle. Theres no charging to be had, you just recapture energy from braking and then apply it.

With a phev, they enlarge the battery so you can have excess charge. You plug in to build up this extra charge, and it uses just that charge to give you a small amount of electric only use (about enough to cover the average driver's daily use). Once that excess charge is used up, it reverts back to behaving just like a normal hybrid.

That's also exactly what the 4xe does. You have a large battery that allows for some electric only use and then it behaves like a normal hybrid once the battery reads <1%.


It's important to understand that the 4xe is always in a hybrid mode. The electric, hybrid, and e-save buttons just change the behavior of when it prefers running with both the gas and electric motors running or just the electric motors.



Or to put it more simply, any time the gas motor is running, it's behaving as the "hybrid" you're expecting. The 4xe doesn't have a "gas" only mode.

 

[Butterfly]

Thank you for explaining the differences to me! My dealership could not. Are you saying that you run in Hybrid mode all the time? And that is the most efficient way to utilize the phev? I've seen in other forums that the battery should never be depleted to under 10%...

 

[Mllcb42]

Thank you for explaining the differences to me! My dealership could not. Are you saying that you run in Hybrid mode all the time? And that is the most efficient way to utilize the phev? I've seen in other forums that the battery should never be depleted to under 10%...

Let's be clear about a couple terms and operations.

The 4xe is always a hybrid. Doesnt matter if you select the "electric", "hybrid", or "e-save" drive modes, they're all different flavors of hybrid functionality.

The state of charge for the battery in the display is not the actual battery state of charge. When it says "100%" in the dash, it's actually more like 95% full. When it says "<1%" in the dash, it's actually more like 15% full. It reduces the overall capacity to the usable capacity both for battery health (it isn't healthy foe the battery long term to ever charge to 100% or discharge to 0%) and to hold some reserve at the low end so that it can still behave like a "normal" hybrid.

Think of the battery read out not as the overall charge but how much excess charge is available for just electric use. When it says <1%, it's like it has that same small battery a normal hybrid has, it just isn't available for electric only use. Basically, you can't ever make it go under 10%.


So if it's always a hybrid, what's the difference between "electric" mode and "hybrid" mode? When there is charge in the battery, basically the difference is how hard you have to press the gas pedal before the gas engine turns on. In hybrid, it tries to use up the battery by not using the gas engine if possible (as the best way to not use much gas is to not use any gas), but it will do so if you try to accelerate harder to give you more instant access to power, etc. It's basically you telling the jeep "hey, I'd prefer to not use any gas, but use it if it would help."

In electric, it really tries to limit gas use, even if it compromises performance, but if you really put your foot down because you need to go now, it'll bring the engine on. It's basically you telling the jeep "hey, I REALLY don't want to use any gas, but if you absolutely have to, go for it".

With e-save, you have two different options. "Hold" and "charge". "Hold" is basically saying "I'd like to keep the excess charge level where it is now, so don't let it go down." It'll run primarily as a normal hybrid instead of electric only, but still may run electric here and there if it regens extra, you're going slow, etc. Usually this means using the electric motors to help a lot on acceleration, but keeping them off when you're at a steady speed. It's basically the exact same thing that happens when you use up the excess charge in hybrid or electric. It's just keeping the charge at "<1%" then instead of whatever value it was when you turned on e-save hold.

E-save charge is basically you saying "I want to have the ability to run electric only later, so I don't care how much money in gasoline you have to light on fire to make sure I have some later, go nuts". It's horribly inefficient to use the jeep in this manner (you will burn way more gas charging than you'd ever save with what you charge up), but sometimes you have reasons other than fuel economy why you might need it.

So what mode(s) do I use? Usually I use "electric" when I'm driving around town and e-save hold on the highway, if I know I will have enough in town driving when I get off the highway to deplete the battery. I do this because I'm trying to micromanage the behavior excessively and I like driving in Electric when I have the top open (which i usually open as soon ad im off the highway) so I don't have to listen to the engine. This is far from necessary though and leaving it in hybrid mode to make its own choices is totally fine. It'll use up the electric only range first and then act as a normal hybrid after that.

Yes, the fuel economy when acting as a normal hybrid is not great. Phevs in general trade off on economy this way because of all the extra weight of the battery system compared to normal hybrids. You get lower fuel economy on longer drives as a trade off for using no fuel on shorter drives. The 4xe is also designed to focus on off road performance first and economy as a lower priority. No one else does a phev system pumped through a real 4x4 drivetrain like the 4xe.

 

[BHoward]

Let's be clear about a couple terms and operations.

The 4xe is always a hybrid. Doesnt matter if you select the "electric", "hybrid", or "e-save" drive modes, they're all different flavors of hybrid functionality.

The state of charge for the battery in the display is not the actual battery state of charge. When it says "100%" in the dash, it's actually more like 95% full. When it says "<1%" in the dash, it's actually more like 15% full. It reduces the overall capacity to the usable capacity both for battery health (it isn't healthy foe the battery long term to ever charge to 100% or discharge to 0%) and to hold some reserve at the low end so that it can still behave like a "normal" hybrid.

Think of the battery read out not as the overall charge but how much excess charge is available for just electric use. When it says <1%, it's like it has that same small battery a normal hybrid has, it just isn't available for electric only use. Basically, you can't ever make it go under 10%.


So if it's always a hybrid, what's the difference between "electric" mode and "hybrid" mode? When there is charge in the battery, basically the difference is how hard you have to press the gas pedal before the gas engine turns on. In hybrid, it tries to use up the battery by not using the gas engine if possible (as the best way to not use much gas is to not use any gas), but it will do so if you try to accelerate harder to give you more instant access to power, etc. It's basically you telling the jeep "hey, I'd prefer to not use any gas, but use it if it would help."

In electric, it really tries to limit gas use, even if it compromises performance, but if you really put your foot down because you need to go now, it'll bring the engine on. It's basically you telling the jeep "hey, I REALLY don't want to use any gas, but if you absolutely have to, go for it".

With e-save, you have two different options. "Hold" and "charge". "Hold" is basically saying "I'd like to keep the excess charge level where it is now, so don't let it go down." It'll run primarily as a normal hybrid instead of electric only, but still may run electric here and there if it regens extra, you're going slow, etc. Usually this means using the electric motors to help a lot on acceleration, but keeping them off when you're at a steady speed. It's basically the exact same thing that happens when you use up the excess charge in hybrid or electric. It's just keeping the charge at "<1%" then instead of whatever value it was when you turned on e-save hold.

E-save charge is basically you saying "I want to have the ability to run electric only later, so I don't care how much money in gasoline you have to light on fire to make sure I have some later, go nuts". It's horribly inefficient to use the jeep in this manner (you will burn way more gas charging than you'd ever save with what you charge up), but sometimes you have reasons other than fuel economy why you might need it.

So what mode(s) do I use? Usually I use "electric" when I'm driving around town and e-save hold on the highway, if I know I will have enough in town driving when I get off the highway to deplete the battery. I do this because I'm trying to micromanage the behavior excessively and I like driving in Electric when I have the top open (which i usually open as soon ad im off the highway) so I don't have to listen to the engine. This is far from necessary though and leaving it in hybrid mode to make its own choices is totally fine. It'll use up the electric only range first and then act as a normal hybrid after that.

Yes, the fuel economy when acting as a normal hybrid is not great. Phevs in general trade off on economy this way because of all the extra weight of the battery system compared to normal hybrids. You get lower fuel economy on longer drives as a trade off for using no fuel on shorter drives. The 4xe is also designed to focus on off road performance first and economy as a lower priority. No one else does a phev system pumped through a real 4x4 drivetrain like the 4xe.

@Mllcb42 you are a credit to this fourm, going into great detail on the explanation about the 4XE operating system.

@Butterfly , let me make a few other suggestions and they might sound like I'm busting your balls a little bit but I'm not.
Read the owner's manual and especially the 4XE supplement, at first it is a bit much, but honestly I think if you understand the operating system you will probably like it.
Also no matter what you're still not going to get great fuel economy it's basically a brick on Wheels with 800 lb extra worth of battery and motors.
If you are considering getting the regular model in essence all you would need to do to mimic that is, let's say your Hybrid battery is around 50% and if you push the e-save operating system (battery charge) button the engine will just run most of the time and you will in essence have the same thing as the non hybrid model only with an extra 135 horsepower.

Keep in mind this is some oversimplification for the purpose of just trying to prove some points. I hope you don't trade it in while taking the financial hit without understanding the benefits to the 4XE.

 

[Butterfly]

Phewwww! I've learned more in these posts than I expected! I don't have balls to bust but I thank you for taking your time to help. I plan to share these posts with my salesperson/dealership to see if others can benefit, as well.

 

[Mllcb42]

It's really unfortunate that dealers don't have a better understanding of what they're selling. I'm always amazed how many people post up flustered that their battery was empty after only 30 miles or how many people are upset that they're not getting the 50ish mpg they think they should be getting because of a misunderstanding of the mpgE rating. (Or worse yet, their dealer told them the mpge rating was the mpg rating).

Im glad I could help shine some light. Let us know what other things you have questions on (there are plenty of other often misunderstood things, like what max regen does, etc).

 

[Butterfly]

Thank you so much!

 

[some guy]

Since this thread is titled 'Regrets', hopefully it's not a hijack if I slightly change the topic to regrets other than EV range or mpg. I'm fine with those, I knew going in what to expect. My regret is getting the base model GC 4xe Trailhawk. I saved a few G's, but I REALLY REALLY wish I had the panoramic sunroof and the surround camera. The wireless charging would be nice to but not a necessity. I love this vehicle, no problems except buggy Uconnect that needs a reboot periodically. It's worse if you have Alexa and amazon music, she crashes all the time. But that's still just a nusiance and I'm sure they'll eventually fix it with an OTA update.

 

[bossboy302]

2021 Wrangler Sahara 4xe: Regrets...not one. I learned of the vehicle's approach to the market, studied what I could, and made what I hoped was an educated purchase. It worked in this case. Outstanding vehicle as we come up on 12k miles. Only dealer visit was for first oil change and a couple computer re-flashes (recall). All is great. I won't bore you with my "Hybrid mode-set and forget" mantra, but, wife is averaging 910 miles per tank of fuel. No FORM, no CEL, no nothing. Plug it in nightly. YMMV....

 

[C.sco]

It's really unfortunate that dealers don't have a better understanding of what they're selling.

Too true. I tried to arm myself with as much information as I could before I went to the dealer, so I wouldn't have to rely on their "expertise" too much. But I still had a few questions along the way, like how does the swaybar disconnect work, or do I have to be stopped and in neutral to shift between 4-hi auto and 2-high, or roughly how much does it cost to add this or that feature, and mostly just got "I'm not really sure, if you want I can try to ask someone". The salesman was nice enough, but it was clear that he wasn't really much of a Jeep guy.

 

[K-Gun33705]

I have had my '23 Trailhawk 4xe for two weeks. I was super-excited to order this as it is my first hybrid. But...this car has created more anxiety in my life than I would have ever dreamed. My biggest disappointment is that the Hybrid mode doesn't seem to work like I thought hybrids should. I'm appalled that the battery drain in Hybrid equals the drain in Electric. Is this a normal experience for everyone else? I don't want to have to plug it in every night to get only 20-24 miles out of a full charge and in Hybrid mode. I drive equal parts city and highway. I feel like I am watching my dashboard constantly. I am not enjoying this vehicle at all.

After five days of driving it, and communicating with my salesperson each day, I ordered a non-hybrid JGC. I am taking a huge financial hit.

Thoughts, anyone?

I agree 100%! I am one on the few that that drives about 20-25 miles per day. So, to me it’s fine. I live in a Condo with free charging. So. That is a mute point as well. I am still on 1st tank of gas& have 1300 miles on it with a quarter tank left. I am just an exception. That is for sure.

I bought my 2022 Trailhawk 4xe on January 25th. I wanted the Trailhawk so that is why I got it. If I drove more probably would have got a regular Summit or Overland. I understand the gas drain though. I have driven to see my parents twice about 49 minutes away. After electric is gone I burn some gas on Interstate. If not for those trips would easily get 2,000 miles a tank.

this is main reason I leased. Technology isn’t there yet for it to be a keeper. Plus I write off lease

sorry it isn’t working that great for you.

Good Luck!

 

[Ced_4XE]

It's really unfortunate that dealers don't have a better understanding of what they're selling.

Yes Sir. My biggest take away is that the 4XE is perfect for "certain" drivers. If you drive very agressive or mostly on the highway with longer trips, than you probably would be better with the gas model. You really have to plug it in all the time to get the most out of it. This applies to all PHEV cars.

There are 3 Rav4 PHEVs on my street and I was talking with one owner and the experiences seem very similar, just with more range and better MPG when on gas (obviously).

 

[Mllcb42]

There are 3 Rav4 PHEVs on my street and I was talking with one owner and the experiences seem very similar, just with more range and better MPG when on gas (obviously).

Just as an amusing anecdote for the grass is greener folks who miss that other phevs also aren't a fan of the cold:

Once the temperature gets really cold, the 4xe tells you that it needs you to plug it in so that it can condition the battery so it'll warm up the battery before starting.

On the rav4 phev, at the same temperature, Toyota tells you to "come back when it's warmer out" if you want to start it.

 

[gfdiver69]

2022 rubicon 4xe - 12,000 miles, 104 mile round trip work commute. Eastern Idaho so you have rolling hills, inclimate weather and speeds ranging from 40 to 75mph with city driving mixed in. I'm getting 20 to 21 mpg. A coworker had a 2022 ruby with the turbo 4 cyl driving the same route and said he avg'd around 17 to 18 mpg. Another with the 6 cyl. said he is getting the same at 17mpg. Laws of physics when you drive a box.
My best mpg is when I can get the ICE working with the electric pulling about 15 to 20%.
I agree the engineering has a long way to go considering this hybrid technology was in operation in the mid 70's. (Haul trucks in coal strip mines)

 

[Ced_4XE]

Speed is the biggest factor. This thing isn't very slick so the MPG gets exponentially worse as the speeds go up. I get 19-20 mpg or so on longer trips (no charging) but easily down to 14-15 mpg if I keep the speeds up and use the power.

 

[Joemama]

I agree 100%! I am one on the few that that drives about 20-25 miles per day. So, to me it’s fine. I live in a Condo with free charging. So. That is a mute point as well. I am still on 1st tank of gas& have 1300 miles on it with a quarter tank left. I am just an exception. That is for sure.

I bought my 2022 Trailhawk 4xe on January 25th. I wanted the Trailhawk so that is why I got it. If I drove more probably would have got a regular Summit or Overland. I understand the gas drain though. I have driven to see my parents twice about 49 minutes away. After electric is gone I burn some gas on Interstate. If not for those trips would easily get 2,000 miles a tank.

this is main reason I leased. Technology isn’t there yet for it to be a keeper. Plus I write off lease

sorry it isn’t working that great for you.

Good Luck!

Right of a lease Please explain.

 

[Joemama]

Just as an amusing anecdote for the grass is greener folks who miss that other phevs also aren't a fan of the cold:

Once the temperature gets really cold, the 4xe tells you that it needs you to plug it in so that it can condition the battery so it'll warm up the battery before starting.

On the rav4 phev, at the same temperature, Toyota tells you to "come back when it's warmer out" if you want to start it.

I asked this on FB to you. First day having the car in 33 degree weather (Spring left us over night). It was plugged in all night. I unplugged turned the car on and the ICE turned on until I put it in drive. When it was idling it was rev up and down ever so slightly which I thought was weird on a cold start. You are the expert on these things so wanted to ask if that is normal behavior? Also if it is plugged in can you hit remote start and precondition? or how do you pre Condition I tried to just hit the button without hitting break nothing happened saw 7kw draw and 7 kw draw for climate which wasn't even on. If I would have known the ICE would kick on I would have just remote started it.
@Mllcb42
Thanks in advance.

 

[HardSell]

With a normal hybrid, you essentially have a gas engine augmented by an electric motor with a small battery.......With a phev, they enlarge the battery...

.....and the electric motor, thus increasing mass, weight and integral complexity which in turn increases friction, heat, energy required to overcome inertia while also increasing long term maintenance. This all serves to decrease for the long term, overall efficiency, joy and one's sleep at night from seeing visions of screen info coming from the center stack of the dashboard. Moreover, different from a true stand alone hybrid you pay for the additional infrastructure and the electricity it provides once a PHEV's battery is discharged after a handful of miles are driven in electric only mode only to be plugged in to begin the process all over again.

it's behaving as the "hybrid" you're expecting.

......with the exception of better highway mileage than a comparable ICE will deliver on road trips of more than 150 miles. Mllcb42's excellent post #5 reads a little bit like tax code, showing how simple a PHEV owner's world is.