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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Who needs to think when a surplus of money is apparently available?
LOL - no, it's that WE decide when it's time based on a list of things - on other options or miles on a vehicle, remaining warranty, whatever. Not based on a spreadsheet. There comes a time when certain other things are worth some money.
We do weigh the values of our current vehicles, what they have cost us each year and so on, but there's tire wear and age, maintenance costs, fuel economies, taxes, safety features (which impact insurance rates), diminishing reliability, the list goes on.

In my case, I changed trucks. Nothing was wrong with my 2011 Silverado other than the tires were over 7 years old and showing cracks - it had under 50,000 miles and was 8 years old. But I found it was over-kill, didn't get the fuel economy of some others, and with the age, warranties being gone, needing tires and fuel economy, lack of garage space for a big truck, and the fact it sat a lot due to it just not being a great daily driver, I "downsized" to a Gladiator. Far better mpg, far more safety features, makes a decent DD, fits the garage, a much better fit. Economics alone would have said slap tires on the Chevy and keep it. But sometimes spreadsheets and math don't tell a whole story. I sold my WJ, moved vehicles around, park the JT in the garage - even with a snow plow on the front and it's a good road vehicle for long trips. It tows and gets a lot better mpg towing or not towing than my Chevy could. Convenience is part of the equation, preferences, safety, features, you name it. Heck, I'd probably still have my 95 F250 if it was simply about minimizing expenses at any other cost.

We were looking at a lot of things on the 4xe purchase. And it was time for my wife to have what she's really wanted for a long time.
My parents were married in 1956. They bought their first new vehicle in 2010. My brothers and I kept telling them that it was time they actually enjoyed what they had saved, we didn't want it, it was theirs.
Sadly, Mom died 5 years later of cancer in 2015, Dad killed by a sleeping driver in 2018. They didn't get to enjoy much. They finally could do things and had a nice vehicle, but died before enjoying it.
We scrimped and saved and busted butts working 50 and 60 hours a week, little sleep, to be able to relax a tiny bit later and finally enjoy the results of earlier stresses and crazy hours.
 

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But sometimes spreadsheets and math don't tell a whole story
Not based on a spreadsheet.
I hadn't realized I attached a spreadsheet to my post :), but it seems from your reply that you're in the habit of running a virtual spreadsheet in your mind. Nothing wrong with that.

Sadly, Mom died 5 years later of cancer in 2015, Dad killed by a sleeping driver in 2018
Sad. I lost mom to cancer at 57 from smoking long after Dad found another woman. I've been blessed with 40 years of retirement by being debt free, fixing my own cars and having competent physicians. Gainful employment doing what I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it is considered in the sum of those years. A close friend commented that he was born to be retired then died of cancer six months after getting his watch. The future is best not presumed. I'm in the market for an updated Wrangler; but in test driving JLs and from the experiences of those who have them and wheeled with me, the JLs aren't ready for me. I want a two door JTR with a 6-1/2 foot bed and drop down tail gate, bumper mounted swing out spare and short block V8. I've had all three of those things, but not on one vehicle.
 

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My wife comes from a long line of Grand Cherokees. They have all had the 4.0 or later, the 3.6. I own my second Gladiator. Not a total stranger to Jeeps. I recently made the mistake of showing her a Wrangler Sahara in a dealer show room that was "purple" (reign). I was sort of teasing her because for a long time she has said "I want a purple Jeep". We know Grand Cherokees are always conservative colors. No can do unless you go Wrangler. Well, expecting some comment like "nice" or hey, purple, she said "how much" and then "I want one". Does she? We'll find out...... So now my hours are spent trying to find her a loaded Wrangler Unlimited in reign. Must have body color roof, body color fender flares, and all the safety and convenience stuff. No black. Most of my searches, I'd say 3/4 of what I see out there are 4xe. I'd never thought of that power train, I've been a 4.0 or 3.6 person myself so even as a former mechanic, don't know a lot about them so when I tell her I can't find any with the 3.6 I am further tasked with learning about the 4xe. Fine, my son traded his Compass for an Audi EV SUV so why not....... My questions, finally, how would a 65 year old woman do with a 4xe? She's a "get in and go" person (handicaps mean I'd have to install steps and such) but for the power train - she's been asking about dealing with batteries, how far can she drive and special considerations - how will it do in Iowa winters at sub-0 temps, and so on. Are these a young person's Jeep, or - taking into consideration age, physical handicap, arthritis and all - and cold winters, should I tell her she just can't have a purple Jeep (because none exist with our options that aren't 4xe) or at least consider one for her? Must have Selec-Trac and it appears that's another plus for 4xe - that all seem to have that t-case. She can't shift a transfer case back and forth like I've done for years. Thoughts? Realities of the 4xe us old timers LOL (power is not a problem, my garage is wired for 220 welders and such with a 60 amp service)
My wife wanted 4 things when we got our 4xe:
  • Yellow
  • Sky one touch top
  • Leather seats
  • Heated seats (cold weather group)
We open the sky one touch top a lot, sometimes with the heated seats. If it gets too chilly, we just close it. My wife LOVES the power top. I usually keep it in the garage. On a business trip, I did the remote start when it was about 30 degrees. Since it wasn’t plugged in, the engine started to warm it up. If she’s going on a 320-400 mile trip, she will need to stop for gas.
 

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My wife comes from a long line of Grand Cherokees. They have all had the 4.0 or later, the 3.6. I own my second Gladiator. Not a total stranger to Jeeps.
I recently made the mistake of showing her a Wrangler Sahara in a dealer show room that was "purple" (reign). I was sort of teasing her because for a long time she has said "I want a purple Jeep". We know Grand Cherokees are always conservative colors. No can do unless you go Wrangler. Well, expecting some comment like "nice" or hey, purple, she said "how much" and then "I want one". Does she? We'll find out......
So now my hours are spent trying to find her a loaded Wrangler Unlimited in reign. Must have body color roof, body color fender flares, and all the safety and convenience stuff. No black.
Most of my searches, I'd say 3/4 of what I see out there are 4xe. I'd never thought of that power train, I've been a 4.0 or 3.6 person myself so even as a former mechanic, don't know a lot about them so when I tell her I can't find any with the 3.6 I am further tasked with learning about the 4xe. Fine, my son traded his Compass for an Audi EV SUV so why not.......
My questions, finally, how would a 65 year old woman do with a 4xe? She's a "get in and go" person (handicaps mean I'd have to install steps and such) but for the power train - she's been asking about dealing with batteries, how far can she drive and special considerations - how will it do in Iowa winters at sub-0 temps, and so on.
Are these a young person's Jeep, or - taking into consideration age, physical handicap, arthritis and all - and cold winters, should I tell her she just can't have a purple Jeep (because none exist with our options that aren't 4xe) or at least consider one for her?
Must have Selec-Trac and it appears that's another plus for 4xe - that all seem to have that t-case. She can't shift a transfer case back and forth like I've done for years.
Thoughts? Realities of the 4xe us old timers LOL
(power is not a problem, my garage is wired for 220 welders and such with a 60 amp service)
I’ve always wanted a Jeep and didn’t set out to purposely get a 4xE Jeep. But I love it!! My husband has it set up so it takes right around 2 hours to charge. And there are chargers literally everywhere in Ohio! My driving habits on a daily bases are normally less than 30 miles, so it’s been awesome. When we do road trips we just use gas- no problem. I also have the one touch power roof, which I’ve been able to use a couple of times with the mild winter we’ve had in Ohio and it’s great! I didn’t initially set out for an 4xE jeep or one touch power roof but if I was going to experience buying a jeep again, I would go for both of these options. Did I mention I TOTALLY LOVE my RED Jeep!!
 

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Hi- I was curious what the specific recall is? I’ve had no recalls at all on my 4XE.
There really aren't any "terrible" recalls. Some Jeeps had loose coolant line fasteners and there is a software update that fixes some communication issues on older 4xes. Some dealerships werent following the instructions in the update and broke several high voltage batteries that took a while to replace due to parts availability. So far, there are no recalls applicable to 2023 that I've seen.
 

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My wife comes from a long line of Grand Cherokees. They have all had the 4.0 or later, the 3.6. I own my second Gladiator. Not a total stranger to Jeeps. I recently made the mistake of showing her a Wrangler Sahara in a dealer show room that was "purple" (reign). I was sort of teasing her because for a long time she has said "I want a purple Jeep". We know Grand Cherokees are always conservative colors. No can do unless you go Wrangler. Well, expecting some comment like "nice" or hey, purple, she said "how much" and then "I want one". Does she? We'll find out...... So now my hours are spent trying to find her a loaded Wrangler Unlimited in reign. Must have body color roof, body color fender flares, and all the safety and convenience stuff. No black. Most of my searches, I'd say 3/4 of what I see out there are 4xe. I'd never thought of that power train, I've been a 4.0 or 3.6 person myself so even as a former mechanic, don't know a lot about them so when I tell her I can't find any with the 3.6 I am further tasked with learning about the 4xe. Fine, my son traded his Compass for an Audi EV SUV so why not....... My questions, finally, how would a 65 year old woman do with a 4xe? She's a "get in and go" person (handicaps mean I'd have to install steps and such) but for the power train - she's been asking about dealing with batteries, how far can she drive and special considerations - how will it do in Iowa winters at sub-0 temps, and so on. Are these a young person's Jeep, or - taking into consideration age, physical handicap, arthritis and all - and cold winters, should I tell her she just can't have a purple Jeep (because none exist with our options that aren't 4xe) or at least consider one for her? Must have Selec-Trac and it appears that's another plus for 4xe - that all seem to have that t-case. She can't shift a transfer case back and forth like I've done for years. Thoughts? Realities of the 4xe us old timers LOL (power is not a problem, my garage is wired for 220 welders and such with a 60 amp service)
I would stay clear of the Wrangler 4xe. Had mine for 6 months and has been in the shop for 4 of the six months. Waiting on a new motor.
 

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Had mine for 6 months and has been in the shop for 4 of the six months. Waiting on a new motor.
Disappointing to hear that. Sharing your experience as an early adopter is helpful to us :cautious: who own and wheel ICE Jeeps with a couple hundred thousand miles on them and are in the market for replacement, expecting new models and new tech to be less trouble and far more economical than what our warn (pun intended) out, but fixable rides are. I hope things get worked out and you'll soon be using your Jeep for what you wanted to use it for. Thanks for posting.
 

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I’ve always wanted a Jeep and didn’t set out to purposely get a 4xE Jeep. But I love it!! My husband has it set up so it takes right around 2 hours to charge. And there are chargers literally everywhere in Ohio! My driving habits on a daily bases are normally less than 30 miles, so it’s been awesome. When we do road trips we just use gas- no problem. I also have the one touch power roof, which I’ve been able to use a couple of times with the mild winter we’ve had in Ohio and it’s great! I didn’t initially set out for an 4xE jeep or one touch power roof but if I was going to experience buying a jeep again, I would go for both of these options. Did I mention I TOTALLY LOVE my RED Jeep!!
Disappointing to hear that. Sharing your experience as an early adopter is helpful to us :cautious: who own and wheel ICE Jeeps with a couple hundred thousand miles on them and are in the market for replacement, expecting new models and new tech to be less trouble and far more economical than what our warn (pun intended) out, but fixable rides are. I hope things get worked out and you'll soon be using your Jeep for what you wanted to use it for. Thanks for posting.
On the other side of this, I’ve had my 4xE for almost 4 months and not one minute of trouble and we absolutely love it! The snowy weather has been a blast to have a Jeep in!
 

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LOL - no, it's that WE decide when it's time based on a list of things - on other options or miles on a vehicle, remaining warranty, whatever. Not based on a spreadsheet. There comes a time when certain other things are worth some money.
We do weigh the values of our current vehicles, what they have cost us each year and so on, but there's tire wear and age, maintenance costs, fuel economies, taxes, safety features (which impact insurance rates), diminishing reliability, the list goes on.

In my case, I changed trucks. Nothing was wrong with my 2011 Silverado other than the tires were over 7 years old and showing cracks - it had under 50,000 miles and was 8 years old. But I found it was over-kill, didn't get the fuel economy of some others, and with the age, warranties being gone, needing tires and fuel economy, lack of garage space for a big truck, and the fact it sat a lot due to it just not being a great daily driver, I "downsized" to a Gladiator. Far better mpg, far more safety features, makes a decent DD, fits the garage, a much better fit. Economics alone would have said slap tires on the Chevy and keep it. But sometimes spreadsheets and math don't tell a whole story. I sold my WJ, moved vehicles around, park the JT in the garage - even with a snow plow on the front and it's a good road vehicle for long trips. It tows and gets a lot better mpg towing or not towing than my Chevy could. Convenience is part of the equation, preferences, safety, features, you name it. Heck, I'd probably still have my 95 F250 if it was simply about minimizing expenses at any other cost.

We were looking at a lot of things on the 4xe purchase. And it was time for my wife to have what she's really wanted for a long time.
My parents were married in 1956. They bought their first new vehicle in 2010. My brothers and I kept telling them that it was time they actually enjoyed what they had saved, we didn't want it, it was theirs.
Sadly, Mom died 5 years later of cancer in 2015, Dad killed by a sleeping driver in 2018. They didn't get to enjoy much. They finally could do things and had a nice vehicle, but died before enjoying it.
We scrimped and saved and busted butts working 50 and 60 hours a week, little sleep, to be able to relax a tiny bit later and finally enjoy the results of earlier stresses and crazy hours.
Bought a 4xe for very similar reasons. It was actually my wife’s bucket list car, a wrangler, not specifically the 4xe derivative. I could never justify purchasing one because I spent a large part of my career working at the corporate level for another large well known automobile company that builds 4 wheel drive vehicles and to remain nameless, big green oval. I mention this because it will become relevant later on in my reply. The reason I chose the 4xe was partially fuel efficiency, we’re tracking 26.5mpg and have put 3000 miles on it. So that’s good but not great if you take it by itself, but for me the real plus is that few extra mpg comes with 100 extra horsepower. I’ve heard much about software related issues as far as how and why the vehicle chooses which power source to engage ( electric motor, ICE, or combo ). I’ve heard much about the electric motors not being available in extreme cold, I live in the SE so not a frequent problem here but we have had a usually cold winter and a couple days I experienced this. But when the weather returned to normal temps, the vehicles operation returned to normal as well. Having had experience with hybrid power plants throughout my career and starting at a very early stage I’ve seen it’s progression, and lots of its quirkiness. Often times what is perceived as a flaw in a vehicle like a hybrid, isn’t so much a flaw as a disagreement with the decisions the algorithms are programmed to follow. In simple language; it’s doing the right thing, we just don’t like what it’s doing. NOW I need to touch on the BIG PROBLEM that everyone considering a Wrangler needs to be fully aware of. It’s been commonly labeled as Death Wobble, it’s very real, it can be very frighting, so much so that my wife refuses to drive ours until it gets resolved. I won’t go into the details of Death Wobble because there is so much excellent information available on it. But in short it is a violent shaking of the vehicle far beyond out of balance tires, it primarily happens over 45mph, it happens when you hit something in the road like a large crack, hole, etc. It is harmonic, meaning it is self sustaining until you slow down enough to break the frequency of the shaking. It appears to me that Jeep is fully aware of the problem but is still in self denial about the true cause and fix. The only service action they have issued is a replacement of the steering stabilizer. Which’s masks the problem some until it is overcome and fails which is inevitable. Their statement is; because of the suspension design; solid axel, coil spring, multi-link. That every vehicle built this way is subject to this condition. And they are right, but in truth that is a weak argument at best. Imagine if a car were required to go 500miles on a tank of gas but the engine stopped working at 400miles. You wouldn’t blame the technology of the engine or the engine, you’d make changes to support the engine in its goal of achieving 500miles. Maybe add a bigger gas tank? This is where Jeep and it’s parent company Stellatis are choosing to fail and not own responsibility. I say this because of my early statement, I know that several automobile manufacturers have built SUV vehicles utilizing the same suspension design; solid axel, coil spring, 5link. And do not experience this issue. Sure they could but in choosing the right components that are large, strong, properly anchored, superior. They do not have this problem. One of these companies have been manufacturing vehicles with this type of suspension since the 1970’s with great success and world recognition, big green oval. My fear is Jeep with duck and dodge this anyway they can until the vehicle falls out of warranty or the multiple class action law suits corner them and they can no longer wiggle free. Here’s the good news; the aftermarket for Jeep is well developed there are lots of enthusiasts and lots of good aftermarket companies making very good parts. The fix for Death Wobble is available on the aftermarket. You just need to be willing to spend $1000 up to $2000 to do it yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Often times what is perceived as a flaw in a vehicle like a hybrid, isn’t so much a flaw as a disagreement with the decisions the algorithms are programmed to follow. In simple language; it’s doing the right thing, we just don’t like what it’s doing. NOW I need to touch on the BIG PROBLEM that everyone considering a Wrangler needs to be fully aware of. It’s been commonly labeled as Death Wobble, it’s very real, it can be very frighting, so much so that my wife refuses to drive ours until it gets resolved. I won’t go into the details of Death Wobble because there is so much excellent information available on it. But in short it is a violent shaking of the vehicle far beyond out of balance tires, it primarily happens over 45mph, it happens when you hit something in the road like a large crack, hole, etc. It is harmonic, meaning it is self sustaining until you slow down enough to break the frequency of the shaking. It appears to me that Jeep is fully aware of the problem but is still in self denial about the true cause and fix. The only service action they have issued is a replacement of the steering stabilizer. Which’s masks the problem some until it is overcome and fails which is inevitable.Their statement is; because of the suspension design; solid axel, coil spring, multi-link. That every vehicle built this way is subject to this conditi on.
Yeah, it's sort of like ESS - I hear people claim it's destructive, it's doing this, it's doing that, and I ask them why they hate it so much. The response is almost always one of two things - "It's annoying" - and I ask them why and they get really mad, or "because it's big brother". Really? They stop buying anything at all because there are regs and reasons for everything out there. People hate, or find annoying, that which they don't understand, and too often make up reasons or explanations which get copied en masse all over the web and become fact.

I'm a retired mechanic, decades in the business, started out in a former AMC shop while in HS, then went on to college for an AA in automotive, little money so worked my way through college doing suspension/steering/brakes, alignments and so on. Suspension and steering is old-hat. First vehicles with steering stabilizers I owned were in the 1980s - Eagles. My thinking is that because of how the knuckles had to sit way out to make room for the outer CV joints, they had some issues with scrub radius or similar

I had a Ford truck that was just shy of actual DW on the highway at certain speeds. It was a really severe wobble - not quite DW.

Their statement is; because of the suspension design; solid axel, coil spring, multi-link. That every vehicle built this way is subject to this condition. And they are right, but in truth that is a weak argument at best.
DW is grossly misunderstood by even mechanics, let alone the public and owners.

They are mostly correct. Ford, Jeep, whatever - it's a matter of geometry and science, harmonics and more.
The problem these days is the internet.
Yes, it happens, but the percentage it happens with is actually a whole lot smaller than it appears. When you visit a hospital, you see sick people. When you visit the internet, you are visiting support groups where people gather to vent frustrations. You don't see people flock to facebook pages or forums to shout out "attaboy! PERFECT vehicle!". They look for others to get that 'me, too' support, validation of their anger or frustration.

Another player in the issue is the fact that Jeeps get modified - a lot. When you start messing with the design, change wheels, tires, add lifts and so on, now you've changed scrub radius, angles on things like the track bar, drag link, maybe the axle is off-center, the intersection of the angles as far as king pin, camber and center of the tire - you've moved that........... and people throw parts on them instead of thinking of it as a system designed to be stable as it is, now you pick parts because "I love these wheels, they LOOK great" and they stick out and you love that and guess what you've just done - you've introduced factors that play right into instability and DW. Backset, offset, tire diameter, it all matters. Lift it without correcting for the geometry and now your linkage is subject to flexing and harmonics.

I've never had a Jeep with DW and neither has my brother, who is with Jeeps like our grandfather was with cars - an old-fashioned horse-trader. See one he likes, gee, let's get that one, too, have it shipped over from MD. Sell the prior on. He'll tire of this one and move to another. Every couple of years there's another Jeep in their corral.

Interesting to note also - Grand Cherokees up to the WK platform were solid axle vehicles - ZJ, WJ, not IFS.

Basically, I'm not concerned. Most DW can either be avoided by smart mods, changing things to work together, (not doing things just to impress or look cool), or by making sure nothing is ever loose, all parts are properly torqued (not using the online charts which are too often not correct, and if lifting, using heavier track bars, drag links and so on, and geometry correction where needed. I've studied it in depth. I know of multiple people who literally did nothing more than take a torque wrench under their Jeep and put things where they should be.
One person who literally go rid of DW by swapping tires. His new tires were the problem. After a lot of hair pulling, the dealer agreed to swop on a different set of tires, different brand - it fixed it.
Another guy resolved his DW by literally tightening every nut and bolt associated with the suspension and steering.
My thing with that law suit, and the whole DW business in general is that there is no one cause. So we can't say "FCA, fix it!" because what causes it on this one isn't the solution on another one. The fix for all Jeeps would likely be to lower them all down and sit about like a WJ at stock curb height.
There is no one fix. There is no one single cause.
It is, however, aggrivated by the vehicle riding higher, putting the parts at more of an angle, instead of straight push and pull, now it can flex. That's one reason you don't see it on so many stock vehicles, those that sit low or at stock height.
Bigger and heavier tires, sitting taller, they make it more likely. Scrub radius and toe factor in in huge ways.
It's one reason I have not, and won't, lift my Gladiators above about 1" or so, and will keep the tire weight down, as well as not going to 35"+ tires.

This Wrangler 4xe will likely stay stock save for steps, and a few accessories for storage or purple knobs inside, that sort of thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
On the other side of this, I’ve had my 4xE for almost 4 months and not one minute of trouble and we absolutely love it! The snowy weather has been a blast to have a Jeep in!
Wednesday it was very cold here. Took it into town to pick up the mats, and run a couple of errands. It started out totally on battery and got almost all the way across the county on battery. The range was likely limited some by the cold, but it did very well. Being a 2023 I expect the issues from 2022 to be resolved - either by parts or by flash/updates, whatever.
I've seen at least 3 YT videos where they did reviews after having some miles on their Wrangler 4xe and except maybe for one or two things, almost all issues were issues you'd also see on a gasser - 3.6, for example. Yeah, my Gladiator has had a couple of updates, and my 2020 JT had a couple of flashes to ward off issues. For the 2022 it was a weird misfire issue that was very difficult to duplicate - the PCM hadn't learned the cam/crank relationship. They had to study it a while and then after a few weeks came out with a flash. That happens with any vehicle.
Anyway, I know with some miles, and the fact that most drives will be mostly battery, I expect to get into some of the FORM stuff but there are solutions for that, and frankly, if it was all gas, short drives in cold weather, and even infrequent drives are hard as heck on any gas engine. Unless you drive any gas powered vehicle and keep that engine running about 30 minutes per trip, you will have issues and will need more frequent oil changes. It's just how gas engines are - and the smaller they are, the worse it can be. So I told her - now and then take it out and run the heck out of the gas engine, drive it at least 30 minutes. Short drives kill gas engines.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Rumor has it that purple knobs are actually the number 1 cause of death wobble
Whew, then I should be fine with my JT since I have blue?
Would you also suggest not going with purple valve stem caps?

Car Vehicle Motor vehicle Plant Steering part


She took it to go to a friend's house where they'll spend the day doing quilting stuff (yeah, right - chatter and eat, little quilt related stuff). It was obvious she's going to need those side steps. But then, even I do at 5'8" I have to step really high and it gets harder to do with each passing year.
 
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